International Student Advisors

henry57 · Sep 28, 2008

Hi Everyone

What is being said about the programme being offered is basically true, nobody will be able to nurse as a result of obtaining a BSc (Honours) Degree in Health & Social Care with Anglia Ruskin University or with University Hertfordshire's BSc (Hons) Degree International Nursing, but on both courses if you are a board Passer with IELTS 7.0 and now with one years work experienced gained in the UK if not in the Philippines or elsewhere, you will be able to undertake the Overseas Nursing Programme (ONP) through the same Universities during the final Semester, which will gain you your PIN and allow you to nurse in the UK.

Where some of the comments are incorrect in saying 'that you will be unable to work' this is wrong for two reasons.

Firstly, under the new Point Based System (PBS) in the UK being introduced in some categories this year and others next year, once you have obtained a recognised UK Degree, as a thank you for studying in the UK by the British Government, you will receive 75 points, sufficient to stay in the UK for a further two years on the Graduate Work Placement Scheme on your STUDENT visa and work full time, no work permit is required, whilst at the same time looking to gain a work permit with an employer who has satisfied the resident Labour Market Test that shows that no EU or UK nurse has applied or been found suitable for the partcular nursing post.

Secondly, I know of overseas nurses who are currently finding work in the UK who have either recently successfully completed their ONP, or have switched jobs as nurses and have been able to obtain 5 year visas as NURSES not as senior Carers.

It is quite correct that most nuring jobs have been removed from the Skills Shortage Occupation list, although recently added back on to the List for caring for the Elderly in Scotland, but all this means is the need for the employer to demonstrate he cannot find a nurse locally, which is why overseas nurses with PIN's are still able to get work permits in the private sector as the public sector is so short of funds and take few overseas nurses on unless in specialist or senior areas.

It is right that you should look very carefully at what is being offered, but if you take the Philippines for example with an excess of 400,000 nurses and over 700,000 currently enrolled in nursing schools and colleges, the opportunity to gain an Internationally recognised Degree must be worth considering, especially when it could lead you to becoming a registered nurse in that country.

One of the saddest aspects of the Philippine Education system, which has been acknowledged by CHD and others, is that most Filipino Bachelor Degrees are not recognised as International, which is why for the UK, Australia, the States and many other countries you need to also pass their exams as well. You see from Elementary to High School it only takes 10 years in the Philippines, whereas in the UK, students study for 12 years before starting a University course and this goes for nurses as well.

These two UK courses recognise that a Filipino nurse has achieved 240 units towards the UK Degree, but still require a further 120 units, which they can gain over the two years of the course, whilst at the same time gaining an income and work experience in the UK, which for so many nurses in the Philippines is just a dream as they cannot find work, not even as a volunteer nurse in some instances.

These courses have been in the UK for some time, but have only recently been made available to overseas based students who would like the opportunity of coming to the UK, gaining both a UK Internationally recognised Degree and paid work experience, which can then lead to them being able to undertake the ONP and become a UK Registered nurse.

Those reading this and other comments must make up their own minds, but British Universities would never promote a Degree Course of no value and both these Universities have excellent reputations and have some of the most advanced health care facilities in the UK.

I know of over 300 Filipino nurses now in the UK studying on these courses, so perhaps some of them that might read these comments can point out the opportunity and value these courses have given them. Four Seasons Healthcare is the third largest private healthcare provider in the UK and has already offered over 360 work placements to Filipino students and more than 100 have already arrived in the UK.

Schemes like this that are Honour Degrees and seek to build on existing experience and qualifications should not be confused with more vocational programmes like National Vocational Qualifications (NVQ'S) that are Diploma or Certificate level qualifications awarded under Further Education, not under the British Higher Education System, which these are.

I think a big thank you should be given to these UK Universities as they really are a big help to Filipino nurses wishing to study and work abroad and perhaps you should consider this as a way forward in your career.

:nurse:

allnurses Guide · Sep 28, 2008

Firstly, under the new Point Based System (PBS) in the UK being introduced in some categories this year and others next year, once you have obtained a recognised UK Degree, as a thank you for studying in the UK by the British Government, you will receive 75 points, sufficient to stay in the UK for a further two years on the Graduate Work Placement Scheme on your STUDENT visa and work full time, no work permit is required, whilst at the same time looking to gain a work permit with an employer who has satisfied the resident Labour Market Test that shows that no EU or UK nurse has applied or been found suitable for the partcular nursing post.
Secondly, I know of overseas nurses who are currently finding work in the UK who have either recently successfully completed their ONP, or have switched jobs as nurses and have been able to obtain 5 year visas as NURSES not as senior Carers.

Henry, just one little flaw in your logic, yes UK employees can give a job to an overseas applicants if there is no UK or EU nurse suitable, I just wonder why you think that in the whole of the UK and EU there are nurses less suitable than new grad Filipino nurses who have no specialist skills. As a UK employer (I reguarly interview and recruit nurses) I am not even allowed to shortlist let alone interview nurses who are not from within the EU and to be honest, even if I could I would look to recruit from UK nurses first. I think you will find getting work as a nurse in the UK is much more difficult than you are making out. I am in the process of trying to redeploy 3 wards of nurses who no longer have jobs due to service cuts and ward closures, the nursing job situation in the UK is dire and jobs should go to our UK trained nurses first.

henry57 · Sep 29, 2008

In reply to Sharrie's last thread - I am guessing that you are referring to the NHS and I agree with you, jobs MUST go to our UK nurses first, it is such a dreadful shame that UK nurses are being laid off due to job cuts brought about by a lack of money. As I mentioned in my first thread 'overseas nurses with PIN's are still able to get work permits in the private sector as the public sector is so short of funds and take few overseas nurses on unless in specialist or senior areas.'

You failed to mention the Private Sector that are crying out for nurses? Or how many of your ward nurses will relocate and work for a Nursing Home? Or will want to give up their NHS benefits to work in say a 26 bedded private care or nursing home perhaps 200 miles from where they are currently working?

I don't know the answer, but what I do know is that you are correct most if not all Hospitals would prefer UK trained nurses, but who is going to give the newly graduated or overseas nurse a chance of gaining work experience?

At least this way they represent no threat to the livlihood of UK nurses, being paid a salary they cannot get in their own country due to lack of funds and oversupply, whilst at the same time studying both for an Internatiuonally recognised Degree and a chance of undertaking their ONP and in time, qualifying as a UK nurse, bacause you and I know that in two to three years there will be a significant shortage in nurses in the UK again brought about by the haphazard methods currently being used to make ill- conceived and damaging cuts in funding. This is an attempt for these nurses to plan for the future.

It sounds like you have a good job in a senior position, but as Mark22 says he needs experience and nobody will give it to him! At first it will not be as a nurse but that can follow then he can use the fact that he has IELTS, NCLEX and his visa screening to good intent and get a job in the US if that is what his dream is.

I do not believe that any of us have all the answers, but I do think it is worth nurses looking at as many opportunities as possible, but please, oh please, do not let Graduate Nurses come here to the UK on an NVQ Course, that really does seem a waste of their training when possibly better opportunities beckon!

Silverdragon102, BSN · Sep 29, 2008

In reply to Sharrie's last thread - I am guessing that you are referring to the NHS and I agree with you, jobs MUST go to our UK nurses first, it is such a dreadful shame that UK nurses are being laid off due to job cuts brought about by a lack of money. As I mentioned in my first thread 'overseas nurses with PIN's are still able to get work permits in the private sector as the public sector is so short of funds and take few overseas nurses on unless in specialist or senior areas.'
You failed to mention the Private Sector that are crying out for nurses? Or how many of your ward nurses will relocate and work for a Nursing Home? Or will want to give up their NHS benefits to work in say a 26 bedded private care or nursing home perhaps 200 miles from where they are currently working?
I don't know the answer, but what I do know is that you are correct most if not all Hospitals would prefer UK trained nurses, but who is going to give the newly graduated or overseas nurse a chance of gaining work experience?
At least this way they represent no threat to the livlihood of UK nurses, being paid a salary they cannot get in their own country due to lack of funds and oversupply, whilst at the same time studying both for an Internatiuonally recognised Degree and a chance of undertaking their ONP and in time, qualifying as a UK nurse, bacause you and I know that in two to three years there will be a significant shortage in nurses in the UK again brought about by the haphazard methods currently being used to make ill- conceived and damaging cuts in funding. This is an attempt for these nurses to plan for the future.
It sounds like you have a good job in a senior position, but as Mark22 says he needs experience and nobody will give it to him! At first it will not be as a nurse but that can follow then he can use the fact that he has IELTS, NCLEX and his visa screening to good intent and get a job in the US if that is what his dream is.
I do not believe that any of us have all the answers, but I do think it is worth nurses looking at as many opportunities as possible, but please, oh please, do not let Graduate Nurses come here to the UK on an NVQ Course, that really does seem a waste of their training when possibly better opportunities beckon!

The thing is immigration and work permits are the same regardless on where you work and I know of many UK nurses that would love to get work in the private sector and jobs are scares. There is not a nurse shortage in the UK and we see regularly on UK students struggling to find work when they qualify. Also requirement from NMC is experience not just hospitals.

henry57 · Sep 29, 2008

Hi Silverdragon

Agreed in part but immigration and work permits are not always quite the same thing, that is why this scheme is worth considering if you are an overseas nurse.

Two years studying at Degree level whilst being able to work plus a further two years under the Graduate Work Placement Scheme (under Tier 4 of the new PBS) with a guarantee of work already arranged for the nurse and for this scheme no work permit is required once the nurse gains their Degree, during the two years of grace given under their Further Leave to Remain. However it is fair to say that during that two year period the nurse should be looking for a full time employer willing and able to apply for a work permit under the new Tier 2 structure of the PBS. If not they would still have to leave the UK after these two years were up.

You might be surprised how many nursing jobs still need filling in the private sector. With one years relevant work experience, IELTS 7.00 in all areas and being a Licensed nurse in your own country will enable you to join the Overseas Nurses Programme and gain your PIN.

allnurses Guide · Sep 29, 2008

Do I take it you work in the private sector of the UK then Henry, it's nto an area I can comment on as you are quite right I work in the NHS, I know in my area jobs in nursing homes and the private sector are very scarce

suzanne4, RN · Sep 29, 2008

Hi Silverdragon
Agreed in part but immigration and work permits are not always quite the same thing, that is why this scheme is worth considering if you are an overseas nurse.
Two years studying at Degree level whilst being able to work plus a further two years under the Graduate Work Placement Scheme (under Tier 4 of the new PBS) with a guarantee of work already arranged for the nurse and for this scheme no work permit is required once the nurse gains their Degree, during the two years of grace given under their Further Leave to Remain. However it is fair to say that during that two year period the nurse should be looking for a full time employer willing and able to apply for a work permit under the new Tier 2 structure of the PBS. If not they would still have to leave the UK after these two years were up.
You might be surprised how many nursing jobs still need filling in the private sector. With one years relevant work experience, IELTS 7.00 in all areas and being a Licensed nurse in your own country will enable you to join the Overseas Nurses Programme and gain your PIN.

Sorry, but I do not agree with your logic either here. Why in the world would someone that has completed essentially five years of schooling to get their BSN in the Philippines wish to attend school for two more years to get nothing more than another Bachelor's degree? That makes no sense at all and then the fact that they will not have current work experience as an RN for that two years, so will not meet the requirements when asked concerning that. Working as a care-giver does not cover that or count as experience. And then the fact that most that are considering something like this have no experience whatsoever in as a paid nurse before they even come over the UK.

Licensure and immigration are two very different things. And not sure if you are aware that visas were not renewed for nurses from the Philippines that were in the UK for about four years and they had to return to the Philippines.

Same way that licensure and immigration are different in almost every country.

And as you mentioned, it is a scheme to get money from unsuspecting students for these programs and to work as caregivers. Funny that we see different programs like this pop up every so often and people get excited by them, but we never hear from anyone that has gone thru them and is then working as an RN and getting paid as one. Scheme is exactly what it is.

Better yet, why is it that you are pushing a program like this? What type of experience do you actually have with it? It would be nice if you posted what your relationship is with this type of program.

henry57 · Sep 30, 2008

To answer sharries question, I am connected with the private sector, not with the NHS.

For Suzanne4, I would just like to say it is not a matter of 'pushing this programme' but taking into account the 400,000 unemployed nurses currently in the Philippines or the 700,000 Filipino nurses enrolled in nursing schools. This gives them a chance to gain an Internationally recognised Degree, which the Filipino Degree is sadly not, and can give them up to 4 years in the UK. I have not heard or seen another UK University Degree Course 'pop up', myself so perhaps you could name a few as it would be interesting to compare them as you say and see if anyone has actually gone through them.

For your information I happen to know these Degree Courses have British nurses enrolled on them, so perhaps you are referring to something very different, perhaps at Diploma or Certificate level. The work environment of the Nursing Homes they are in, not Care Homes, will give them hands on experience to enable them to comply with NMC regulations as the Universities will be monitoring their progress and through assesment will be able to establish their credentials for entering on to the ONP. This has been carefully thought out by the Universities to ensure this can happen.

I am aware of nurses being sent back to the Philippines and many other countries, both nurses working as nurses and nurses working as senior Carers, but to my knowledge in the first instance this was restricted to those with jobs in the NHS and their Hospital or Trust was unable to renew their WP's because of overspends and cost cutting, and again in the Private Sector where some employers were not prepared to pay £7.02 per hour for a senior carer. I also know many who with the correct advice and support were able to stay in the UK and obtain WP's and visas.

I think on balance we should be looking to encourage any credible scheme to help overseas nurses gain experience, additional qualifications and work, don't you, after all if it is good enough for a UK nurse surley the same should apply to overseas nurses?

Hopefully this response has been helpful.

allnurses Guide · Sep 30, 2008

Henry I don't think that any of us are suggesting that the degree course is anything less than excellent as far as studies go. ALl of the Universities in the UK have to comply with the same acaedemic standards to get the courses ratified and approved as level 3 study so the quality of the course is not in question.

What is a concern is

1. These nurses come here to study, they have to prove they are able to support themselves and are only allowed to work 20 hours on a student Visa. If this is at carers pay they are going to find it very difficult to survive in the UK. The cost of living is increasing greatly and making ends meet a challange

2. The points system you talk about is designed to make it more difficult for employeers to offer work to non EU nationals, now I have to be honest the immigration stuff I am not so hot on but if it is designed to make it more difficult then why on earth are Visas going to be given to workers in areas where there is no shortage

Also I am a little confused, does the NMC not require a nurse to have expereince as a qualified nurse before applying for registration. Senior carer does not class as work for a qualified nurse therefore they wouldn't be elidgable for registration. As you say nurses are coming from the phillipines because there is no work there, if they can't get expereince in their own country I don't think the NMC are going to accept carers work to meet the requirements

Could I be direct with you, you did kind of answer my question but also got me curious, you say your linked to the private sector does that mean your a nurse or are you a recruiter for the private sector in the UK?

henry57 · Sep 30, 2008

Hi Sharrie, briefly - 1) they are not restricted to only 20 hours as the course requires a full time work placement. 2) These are students not workers. 3) Many of these students are mature students with nursing experience, others are newly graduated and will benefit from the experience and they are not senior carers. Lastly, I have friends and colleagues who are nurses who asked me to provide more accurate information on these courses as they thought as I do that this would help those reading these threads, you do not need to be a nurse or recruiter to do this.

allnurses Guide · Sep 30, 2008

Henry I have just revisited this whole thread, including the links, the University in question Anglican University has no mention in the literature of overseas nurses, ONP or professional registration, in fact it clearly states that the BSc in Health and Social care does not give any professional qualification.

I just wondered if you are looking at different literature to me?

Silverdragon102, BSN · Sep 30, 2008

It will still come down to what visa they will get enabling them to come to the UK. There is no shortage of workers and the private sector is all about money and I know the UK government are trying to get their own citizens to work or back to work so the new system will just make it harder if not from the EU to get a work permit. The employer is still going to have to prove they could not fill this from within the UK/EU and show proof that they have advertised the job appropriately.